Sarah Stone
Samtaler

Sarah Stone from Samtaler speaks to Alastair Clay, Sustainability and Social Value Manager, NHS North of England Commercial Procurement Collaborative (NOE CPC)

00:12
Sarah Stone
Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Social Value, a podcast where we explore what creating value for society means and the practical ways you can go about creating it. My name's Sarah and my guests work in different areas of social value across public, private and third sector organisations, from public sector procurement to esg and sustainability, social enterprise and impact measurement. I'll be asking them about their work and what they've learned and they will be sharing their tips and experience to help us all make our organisations better. Today we're going to be hearing about social value within NHS procurement. My guest is Alastair clay from the NHS north of England commercial Procurement collaborative. Can I start, Alistair, by just saying thank you so much for joining us. Can you just tell us all a bit about yourself and what it is that you do?

00:58
Alastair Clay
So, I'm the sustainability and social value manager here at north of England commercial procurement Collaborative and what we are is a regional procurement hub that's based in the north of England, in the NHS, and we release frameworks for both the NHS and public sector to access. We provide a wealth of additional specialist support on procurement, training and other value added things where a department of Leeds and York Partnership foundation trusts. So we're wholly owned by the NHS and I think that's a really important point to make in the type of organisation we are and the type of support we want to offer. We've got 42 member trusts that are predominantly based in the north of England, but we offer so much more than that to so many more organisations.

01:39
Alastair Clay
Yes, we have 42 member trusts, but we have a wealth of public organisations that utilise our services and our offering, which is great. So my role as the sustainability and social value manager was created a year ago because the business recognised it was a great opportunity and a missed opportunity to get into this space and to add so much more value. So, you know, I ensure predominantly that we're seeking quality sustainment, social value within our frameworks. I upskill internal staff on things in sustainable social value, on procurement policy notes, carbon, literacy and other requirements within the public sector.

02:10
Alastair Clay
But it's really important and a theme that we'll kind of talk through hopefully in this session, that I seek to upskill our suppliers, both awarded and prospective as well, because it's really important if we're going to bring suppliers on the journey with us on sustainability and social value, we've got to make sure they understand it and we deal with such a variety of organisations, so that's.

02:27
Sarah Stone
That sounds like a huge job. So it's internal, working with staff internally within the organisation. It's also external, working with suppliers and do you write requirements and do you also have a role? Do you assess them? So, you know, do you have a score, submissions or does someone else do that?

02:42
Alastair Clay
So I obviously take part in the evaluating of social value within the organisation and also seek to train others as well, because things with sustainment social value is, you know, it cannot just be one person's role in an organisation. You've got to make sure you're bringing others on the journey. One thing I've been doing is seeking to develop others within the organisation on their confidence in their ability to assess and evaluate social value. And it's not just, you know, coming in at the evaluation stage that I think is important. I think it's understanding from the very beginning in a project what you're trying to do with social value I think is really important.

03:12
Alastair Clay
And then if you understand it from the beginning and you understand what it is you're seeking and why you're seeking and its relevancy to the project, then it becomes a lot easier to understand the types of commitments you want and when you receive it, to score it, you know, it's really important to not think of social value as just a question at the tender stage. It has to be a golden thread that goes through the entire procurement right through to when it closes.

03:33
Sarah Stone
Is that the sort of thing that you find that people internally understand, or is it, do you kind of have like those penny drop moments where you're explaining it and then suddenly they go, oh, now I get it, yeah, I.

03:41
Alastair Clay
Think we recognise the value of doing that as an organisation and our frameworks have category managers that work for themselves, obviously are able to manage the frameworks throughout the lifecycle and to add that value to users of the frameworks, those calling off. So, and I think when I've supported, on my previous role in HS England and my role here in north of England, when I've supported those and encourage others to want to evaluate social value, the penny really drops in a sense that they can see the question that's asked and the types of commitments coming back. So it's really almost a therapeutic exercise to do if you're passionate about social value, because you can understand and reflect on, did you ask the right question to encourage the right results?

04:16
Alastair Clay
And that, I think is where the penny drops, you can see, oh, I didn't get the answers that I wanted or the submissions or the additionality of the social value that you wanted originally in the project. So therefore, why is that and that's why having it as a project group when you do this kind of work is so important and imperative.

04:32
Sarah Stone
Just while we're on the topic, that's one of the things that I hear a lot from suppliers and I also experience myself when I'm supporting suppliers. To write social value responses is if we've been asked the wrong question. And that sounds like a very arrogant thing to say, but often we'll read you're asked a particular question and you think, well, that's really difficult to do through the lens of this contract, but if you'd asked me this, I could have offered you all these things. What would you say to suppliers who are faced with that in a tender? So they've got an ITT in front of them. They're being asked a question that it's either, you know, it's about something that's necessarily relevant or is very difficult for them to do, but it's not.

05:10
Sarah Stone
They don't want to do social value, it's just that they want to offer something else. Is there anything that they can do at that point that you would recommend or do they just have to make the most of it?

05:17
Alastair Clay
I think that's a really good question, because obviously, as a contracting authority, if we're providing a framework where users are going to call off like we do, or if you're a contracting authority in any shape or form in any public or private sector, your role, to ask a question that's relevant to what it is you're tendering or the types of suppliers you're expecting to bid, and we know as social value, I don't want to say experts, but people who are extremely passionate about the social value that's delivered and outcomes. The quality of the question denotes the ability for suppliers to be able to submit commitments if we don't play our role as a contracts and authority and ask the right question, which is within the public contract regs, that we have to be asking the right question, that's relevant.

05:58
Alastair Clay
Well, relevancy to the tender is one of the regulations, isn't it? So it's incumbent on us to do that, but at the same time, if it's a missed opportunity for us as well, so we've got, you know, suppliers shouldn't feel like they hold all the responsibility for social value. We as a contracting authority are the gatekeepers to the suppliers being able to provide the right commitments in the first place. So, you know, I can't speak on behalf of other tendering because I. It's obviously hypothetical at this stage.

06:22
Alastair Clay
But, you know, I always make sure that when I'm supporting the category managers and the design of our frameworks here and the social value that we first think about relevancy, and that social value isn't a barrier to suppliers either being able to bid or certain types or sizes of supplies being able to bid, because we know procurement policy zero 620 or the social value model. The whole point of it being qualitative is to encourage the quality of the bid rather than the quantities that are being.

06:49
Sarah Stone
I was just about to say that's so important, isn't it, that social value is qualitative, not quantitative.

06:54
Alastair Clay
It's one of my biggest tips that I say because I deliver a fair amount of training to our members. I did when I was in NHS England. Less is more in terms of what you're submitting. The more you submit, the more you've got to evaluate, the more you've got a contract managed, so that we know as social value professionals that it's more likely to fall down really, if the more you've got. And that's being honest, isn't it? And we don't want to say that because we're so passionate about social value being a real mechanism for benefit, either environment, socially or I cannot being delivered. So less is more. When you write a really focused question, gets really focused responses. Keep the word count low in my mind and then you're more likely to contract manage it as well.

07:33
Alastair Clay
So I think went on a tangent there, didn't we?

07:36
Sarah Stone
We did. And you've just said something about word count that I would love to come back to, but I'm going to make myself a note. NHS England. So one thing I wanted to ask you was how you got into your role and your background, because you've had quite an interesting, you know, you've been on a journey with social value, haven't you, with the NHS?

07:50
Alastair Clay
I started as a retail buyer originally, so, you know, really got to grips with buying from a private perspective and then moved into NHS supply chain and worked there as a buyer for three years, but got the opportunity to work in what was the ethical and sustainability role there in ancient supply chain at the time, which started to expose me to social value before it was a requirement because there's the Social Value act. So when were tendering out services or considering services, obviously you had to consider social value as part of the service. That was the act, the 2012 act at the time. And then an opportunity came about to join NHS England. I had an absolutely wonderful time now, I can't speak highly enough of the people that's still there and the people that I worked with.

08:30
Alastair Clay
I really enjoyed it and my role there was to help contribute to the launch of social value in the NHS. So we launched the requirement for social value in the NHS in April 2022. And I helped to contribute to doing that and really enjoyed my time there. It's a really big task to do that kind of work, to implement change on a national level, and it's something that I'm really proud of and the privilege as well. It's really privileged. But obviously, we are conscious that it's a big requirement and things like this take time to embed.

08:57
Alastair Clay
But that's my background and that's kind of how I landed here today, because then an opportunity came up here at north of England to be able to take all the learnings that I've got in my career today, all the training that I'd done, all the, you know, the influencing of policy and the helping to shape the benefit of social value. That they created this role here about a year ago at north of England. For me, you know, I thought it was a great fit for me to continue my journey in developing social value. But for a defined cohort, the 42 members that we have as an organisation first and foremost, and the frameworks that we offer. So it's more of a. It's an opportunity for me to really impart my skills in a defined way.

09:31
Sarah Stone
And you get to be in the north of England, which, quite frankly, is best part. I'm very biassed, though, northerners. Anyway, I asked this everybody. It's a really hard question and I think the reason I ask this are people, is because I really struggle whenever people ask it. Me. I haven't quite got my answer right yet. But what is social value? What does social value mean to you?

09:51
Alastair Clay
Well, how long have you got? I know for me, in a professional capacity, it's everything. Yes, my job title is sustainable and social value, but if we think about the levers when it comes to sustainable procurement within the NHS and within the wider public sector and the benefit connect social values, a wonderful opportunity to be able to, within each procurement that you do, be it frameworks like ourselves, be it individual tendering that a trust might do, it's a really unique opportunity to define and seek additional benefit that can make a real difference. You know, it's such a unique opportunity for the NHS and for everyone to be passionate about. Well, what benefit can we seek here collaboratively with suppliers? You know, social value is not a stick to beat suppliers with. You know, we should always make that really clear.

10:36
Alastair Clay
It shouldn't be about how do we make this as difficult as possible. It's about how do we create the opportunity for suppliers to make really good commitments that make a real difference to either the environment, economically or socially. You know, we should be passionate about wanting to do that and to me it's a really good opportunity, so I'm really passionate about doing that. It's an opportunity for us to guide suppliers to commitments that make a real difference to a multitude of stakeholders, be it their workers, be it local inhabitants. So, yeah, to me, in summary, it's just a real gateway to delivering real benefit. That's what it means to me and I'm really passionate about doing it. You know, those who know me know that I live and breathe social value and have done for years.

11:12
Sarah Stone
So, Tillir, that's exactly how I feel as well. It's like this magic when it happens. And I think. I think it's quite interesting what you said about social value not being a stick to beat suppliers with, because I often. I think it does take a while for suppliers to get it. It actually benefits them if they do it properly. You know, you talked about their staff, the beneficiaries are their stakeholders, so there are all kinds of positive things that you see that benefit the supplier when they deliver social value initiatives. Well, it's not just, this is something extra we've got to do for the procurer, something extra for free. It's not going to help us. It's not like that at all. It can be, can't it? If it's some badly, it can be, but I think when it's done well, it benefits everybody.

11:49
Alastair Clay
And that's the thing, we as social value practitioners recognise that it's a journey, social value that we've gone. We shouldn't want to stop learning about how best it's applied or how best the commitments we get back in. Each tendering opportunity is a chance to reflect on, a chance to think about what would I do differently this time. And I always encourage contracts authorities to talk to their suppliers on contracts and really understand what they're doing in other instances, in other sectors as well. We've got suppliers that are awarded across multiple sectors, so it's a really good opportunity to learn about what they're doing well. And we should be proud to pinch other areas, is what we say. But, you know, social value is just such a wonderful opportunity.

12:29
Alastair Clay
And part of social value isn't just the questions that we had at the tender stage, it's about educating others on the benefit as well, because often those who do the tender aren't those that manage the contract or those that do the work. So it's really important for us to make sure that learning is passed on as well and that passion is passed on. Definitely, yeah.

12:46
Sarah Stone
And you talked about social value as a journey. So the north of England commercial procurement collaborative. That's right. No EPC, where are you on your social value journey? What's it been like so far? What stage are you at and how do you approach social value? So am I right in thinking you predominantly manage frameworks, and so can you talk a little bit about the journey that you've been on, but also how social value is used? So do you make specific requirements at the framework stage? Do they get applied at call off, all that kind of thing?

13:13
Alastair Clay
So we've been applying. So no ECPC has been applying social value, actually, before it was officially made a requirement by NHS England in April 2022, which we're really proud of. So, as we touched on previously, you know, as with the majority of the NHS, we seek it through the lens of procurement policy note 0620, or the social value model. So, yes, we apply social value to frameworks. That's our kind of core focus as an organisation to obviously let the frameworks out to the NHS and to public sector organisations. And social value is obviously, it's not difficult to apply social to frameworks, but you have to be mindful of how you're seeking it, because a framework isn't a guarantee of business.

13:52
Alastair Clay
As with NHS supply chain and other frameworks, use of the contracts might transact directly off the framework itself, whereas we set up frameworks in order for the NHS and public sector bodies to call off our frameworks. So actually, it's really important for ourselves as an organisation to word our questions in a way that the suppliers are able to answer, but be conscious of the fact that we don't guarantee business as part of their answer, if that makes sense, and they don't know we can't forecast the value of call us, obviously dependent on the type of industry you're in. You have an understanding of the value of the work that you're doing and undertaking, but it's really important that suppliers are aware of that.

14:31
Alastair Clay
And we word questions in a way that encourages suppliers to make commitments that during a call off, we would consider offering this additionality as part of the question that you're asking, if that makes sense.

14:40
Sarah Stone
That's a really good sentence. So during a call off we would offer, because this is one of the challenges that we have when we've got clients who come to us and they say, look, we're bidding for this framework and they've asked us all these questions and they're really specific, you know, what will you do? But we don't know how much work we're going to get. And also the nature of our business makes it really difficult. It's really easy if you sell units of something and you can say, well, for every ten, we'll give you this much or we'll do one of these. But life doesn't work like that, does it? It's really hard to do. So. I love that. And that if you had that in a response, you would respond well to that. You wouldn't score it down.

15:14
Alastair Clay
Exactly. And I think we have 56% of our awarded suppliers at NRCPC are SME's. So we're really conscious of the fact that, you know, again, it goes back to the qualitative nature of how we seek social value. And I wouldn't compare the quantity of what two suppliers are offering as an evaluator, I would compare the quality of what they're offering. It doesn't have to be loads, it's about doing something well. Less is more. We go back to again, and you asked the question as well when were talking about this in particular, about how it's going for us as an organisation. It's fair to say we're on a journey, as is the entirety of the public sector, in the application of social value. Do we do it perfectly?

15:52
Alastair Clay
No, but are we seeking to always do it better and to engage with our suppliers on doing it collaboratively and bringing them on the journey and making sure that our members understand how to do it in their own tendering as well. Because we're 42 trusts that are members of NOBCBC.

16:06
Sarah Stone
I was going to ask, do you give members guidance on the question? Because obviously it's all very well, you writing it well in the framework, but if at call off, you know, the questions aren't as well.

16:15
Alastair Clay
So we provide our users of the frameworks, be it members or not, the opportunity to either utilise the social value that's been committed at the framework stage. In essence, here's a prepared additionality for you, or you get the opportunity to ask a question yourself, as long as it's within the structure of what we've asked, if that makes sense, because if you're a supplier, the last thing you want is being pulled pillar to post on stuff that's completely different when you've been rewarded to a framework already. And that goes back to the simplicity.

16:43
Alastair Clay
Keeping social value simple in some guys is that we're more likely to get commitments of suppliers if you're asking them for predominately the same things, if that makes sense, you don't want to just a supplier isn't going to want to deliver 100 different types of things and social value, they're going to want to deliver what they can do well as part of the community. You asked them originally, you know, I really want our users to utilise the social value on the framework because that gives me an opportunity to manage it on their behalf as well. You know, it's something that I'd like to do, definitely, because, again, it's not about holding suppliers accountable, it's about working with suppliers to deliver what they've committed and ultimately goes back to, why do we do social value? Because there's so much benefit around it.

17:23
Alastair Clay
You know, I'm passionate about wanting to deliver that benefit, either environmentally, socially or economically.

17:27
Sarah Stone
So, yeah, if a supplier is listening to this and they're thinking, oh, yeah, you know, this guy sounds really sensible. He sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I really want to tell them this, about the questions I'm being asked. Is there a mechanism that people can they reach out to you and say, look, we've been asked this. If you just said this, it would have been more helpful or, you know, give you feedback. Do you do sessions with suppliers? How do you kind of engage with them?

17:49
Alastair Clay
We do engage with suppliers. Awarded suppliers through a supplier relationship management programme. That's really good. So we've got two supplier relationship managers that do a great job of engaging with supplies when they're awarded to contracts to make sure that they're obviously understanding of opportunities that are coming up. But as part of that support, we offer things on sustainability and social value, like talking to them and engaging with them to help them develop carbon reduction plans and also ensuring that they manage their social commitments. Now, it's hard to obviously talk about what feedback we give with suppliers because obviously they're part of tendering processes, so it's much more standardised in a way. But I run webinars for awarded and prospective supplies on a quarterly basis and they're really well attended. We have up to 200 that attend or register to attend every single time.

18:30
Alastair Clay
We do them every quarter in those sessions.

18:33
Sarah Stone
Is there a link where you can.

18:34
Alastair Clay
Sign up on every CPC events? Page. I'd encourage anyone who's listening to this to obviously have a look there and see if there's one to register in the future, because that's about demystifying sustainable procurement. It's about, again, us bringing suppliers on the journey with us, because we don't want the requirements that the NHS England has created or the government in terms of sustainable procurement, such as carbon reduction plans, such as things like modern slavery in the future, such as social value, to be barriers to entry. There should be opportunities to deliver benefit, really, because that's what they're there for. So, as part of the webinars that I run, we cover topics on a variety of different ways. So I have guest supplier speakers. I recognise the value. I can replicate and regurgitate policy. I can, you know, talk suppliers.

19:19
Alastair Clay
But isn't it great to hear from suppliers about their challenges and how they overcame them? So that's an opportunity that I do and offer, and the next one's in June that we'll be running on that. So, yeah, you know, that's kind of what we do to make sure that we bring suppliers on the journey as well. Because social value isn't just a one time thing. Suppliers are often bidding for other contracts elsewhere and we recognise that we can add value by providing that source of education to suppliers in that this is what a good answer looks like, typically on social value, this is what additionality looks like.

19:48
Alastair Clay
Avoid vagueness, those kind of tips, we can cover that and have covered that in sessions before, and we'll cover that again so that it benefits then when they come up to tendering with us again, because they know what a good answer in social value looks like in other commitments, but it will also benefit them in other tendering elsewhere as well.

20:03
Sarah Stone
Just on that, I wanted to ask you about tips and also the kinds of mistakes that suppliers make as well. Are there any tips that you would give people for? What does a good answer look like? And also, what are the common mistakes that you see people make?

20:16
Alastair Clay
It's four golden words that I would always focus on when I'm helping talk about social value. So you could apply this when you're either developing the question as a contracting author or when you're answering as well. So, additionality, you'll hear that a lot in social value. It's mentioned within the actual procurement policy. No zero 620 guidance. What we're looking for in social value through PP zero 620 is commitments that are outside the core deliverables of the contract. That's a premise of social value, isn't it?

20:43
Alastair Clay
So when you're writing a question as a contracting authority, or when you're answering a question as a supplier, am I writing a question in a way that's going to seek additional commitments, or am I answering it in a way providing additional commitments that are outside the core levels of what I'm doing or outside of things I'm already operating or performing as a company already? So that's the first word. I would say relevancy is the second one. So a good answer from a supplier is commitments or wording that's relevant to what is being asked. I know that sounds quite basic, but I often see, as an evaluator, suppliers answering with what they can do rather than what's being asked. And obviously, a part of that goes back to us making sure we're asking the right question.

21:21
Alastair Clay
But I do often see as an evaluator, that suppliers quite often submit things that they can do rather than what they're being asked.

21:28
Sarah Stone
What do you mean by that? I thought you were going to say what they can do rather than what they will do. What do you mean by what they can do rather than what they're being asked?

21:34
Alastair Clay
So, you know, if we ask them for something specific, and they'll come back with, you know, if we ask them for a commitment to reduce the environmental damage, or, you know, as fighting climate change theme does on pvnos X 20, there's two model world criteria within that. So if we ask them for a question based on either one of those Macs, and they came back with something related to fighting climate change, but not what was being asked.

21:55
Sarah Stone
Yeah. So if you said, what additional benefits will you create through delivery of this contract? And they come back with, we've committed to net zero by 2050.

22:03
Alastair Clay
And that's something I see very often, is suppliers often make commitments that are vague or so far in the future that they won't be enacted or influenced through the duration of the contract at which you're tendering for. So vagueness is something that, if you're a supplier listening to this, have a look at your answer. Does it read vague? Because me, as an evaluator, wants certainty, wants measurability, and wants to understand what you're saying. And if it's vague, we are exploring or we are looking into, or we commit to looking into something that's hard to hold a supplier accountable to.

22:37
Sarah Stone
Yeah, I always read pen when people give us an as a review, and that's exactly. I'm like, yeah, you can't use those words. You have to say what you will do, but I think it is also difficult, isn't it?

22:46
Alastair Clay
Because.

22:46
Sarah Stone
Because it's true that, you know, some contracts, it's not easy, but it's easier to do something specific to the contract. But others, you know, especially, particularly if you're a company and it's just a small part of what you're delivering, and your staff and your facilities deliver lots of these things, this product or service, it can be really hard to say what the specific impact at a contract level might be. But I would always say to people, though, even though it is hard, there's always something you can do. I think procurers on the whole are pretty reasonable. My advice would always be, and please challenge me, is what I'm trying to say, have I got this right?

23:20
Sarah Stone
You know, I would always say, look, if you genuinely can't do that at contract level, tell them that in the answer, like, be really transparent, tell them why, but say what you could do. Because I think it goes back to that learning point that you made before, that, you know, how else are procurers supposed to know if the questions they're asking are, you know, genuinely not appropriate or relevant or. Right, they aren't if suppliers don't give them. I think it's that honesty and that transparency, that it's not something we just sort of do naturally, is it? But it's one of the things I love about social value, because it helps the public and the private sector work more closely together.

23:55
Alastair Clay
Definitely.

23:56
Sarah Stone
I do get lots of people look at me in horror when I suggest.

23:58
Alastair Clay
That, you know, you write about the two way conversation on social value. It has to be a journey that we go on together as a contracting authority and as a supplier, anywhere in any sector. If you're not bringing your suppliers on the journey and understanding the feedback, and if you answer a difficult question that isn't proportionate to the value or the length of the contract, you're not going to get the commitments back that you want, and therefore it's a wasted opportunity for both the supplier. Let's not forget that we've talked about the mandatory 10% minimum that PPN zero 620 dictates. You're missing a trick as a supplier and being able to score that, which could be a key differentiator, being awarded or not. But also as a contracting authority, you're missing the opportunity to seek that additionality and that benefit.

24:39
Alastair Clay
So social value is such a wonderful opportunity to do that. It goes back to those words that I was saying.

24:45
Sarah Stone
Additionally, if I interrupted you up to the second word.

24:47
Alastair Clay
So the third one is proportionality. And we've just mentioned that very briefly. And that goes back to, again, the contract and authority. When you're writing a question, is it proportionate what I'm asking for? And for a supplier, is it proportionate of me to commit this? Will I actually be able to deliver? It goes back to less is more. Again, I'd rather the supplier commit to something they could realistically do, rather than saying, we'll change the world and we'll do everything, and then it just not being able to be delivered. And then the last word I would urge both contracts and authority or a supplier to focus on is measurability.

25:17
Alastair Clay
So is the question that you're asking, can a supplier effectively measure it when they're submitting it or through contract management, and when the supplier is then writing their bid, it's thinking about, well, can I actually measure it myself as well? Because contract management is often where I think social value is likely to fall down. Those four things, those four words, when you're designing a question or where you're writing your submission, it will go a long way to being able to shape it in a way that is easy to evaluate, easy to contract manager, and therefore is more likely to be delivered.

25:46
Alastair Clay
So that's kind of a mixture of both where I think suppliers can structure their answers, but also for me, as a contracting authority, how I would word the question as well, or how I would seek to consider how I'm wording the question, if that makes sense.

26:01
Sarah Stone
Yeah, totally makes sense. I think you've answered it. I had another question for you, which is really similar. Which is there anything that you see that you really wish people wouldn't write or do you know? But I think you've talked about that. It's where they say things like, we will consider, we will look into, we will, that kind of vagueness.

26:18
Alastair Clay
I mean, there's a few things that I could pick off. The top of my head is waffle.

26:21
Sarah Stone
Oh, yeah.

26:21
Alastair Clay
Waffle is definitely, you know, and this is where you know, as a supplier, if you've been given 500 words or a thousand words, don't feel like you have to fill it. Obviously, I'm not expecting a supplier to come in with ten words, but if you've got 1000 words, don't just fill it with, you know, you've already made your commitments, and therefore, then you're filling it with, okay, you've been asked a question fighting climate change, and you've then submitted loads of detail because you've had space at the end of your answer about here's and we've got a carbon reduction plan. A carbon plan is not for social value commitments. It's an assessment of your baseline emissions and your future emissions. It's a snapshot in time of your total organization's admissions and how you're planning on getting to net zero.

26:58
Alastair Clay
And when it's not a social value commitment, it's not a contract specific commitment. And I often see that, and obviously, in the evaluations that I've done, I've often seen suppliers utilising word count to put in stuff like that. That's obviously not. You can't evaluate for. And it adds an extra time for me as an evaluator and for you as a supplier, because you're writing extra words and having to consider that as well. So do consider the quality of your answer and don't feel like you have to fill all the word count. We talked about vagueness. We. I think it's worth reiterating that again and thinking about what have I written as a supplier?

27:29
Alastair Clay
Is it specific if it reads as vague, if it's not a specific commitment, if it's not time based and is relevant to the contracts that I'm bidding for, we go back to that point of, I'm going to be net zero by 2050. Okay, great. But that might mean that you start the activity on getting to net zero, right. In 2049, and this contract's only out for the next five years. So that's not relevant to this question. So do you think about vagueness? And it's just reflecting on when you've written the answer and really thinking about if it goes back to those four words that we mentioned in the previous one, because that's a really good structure to start from, I think so, yeah. Apart from those. I think it's just.

28:03
Sarah Stone
Yeah, I love the fact you said waffle, because I always read pen that people get really upset. You know, their first sentence is always, we are deeply committed to the society and the environment and blah, blah, blah. And they go on for about 30 words and you're like, no, get rid of it.

28:19
Alastair Clay
Yeah, definitely. I would agree.

28:20
Sarah Stone
It's not. Yeah, just quickly, on word count, I wanted to ask you, because you've mentioned it a few times and I don't know if we're going to agree on this or disagree. I suspect we'll probably agree with probably those. One of those conversations where you're both actually saying the same thing. So one of the things I struggle with is the word count isn't enough. And I know lots of suppliers say that to me. If you're asked for, you know, you're asked for a method statement, you asked for a time delivery plan, you asked for evidence, and all these are good things, by the way, you should be asked. And that's how you. When we talk about questions, quality versus quantity, that's what we mean. A quality answer has all these things in it. It's really difficult to do that in 501,000 words.

28:57
Sarah Stone
That sort of is my perspective, and I know why there are word limits and I think they're important. And I definitely, myself, written answers that had I been given more words, I would have put in as they were. But because I had to reduce the word limit, I had to cut it, and that made the answer better. And so I've definitely gone back and gone, no, I'm glad they made me get to that word limit because that answer is much better than it would have been. How to put it in? So I do think they're important. I also think they need to be. I mean, we got one the other day, it's 300 words. It was ridiculous. You know, I think 500 words is not enough. A thousand words depends on the question, is often not enough. What's your kind of view on that?

29:32
Alastair Clay
Oh, we could be disagreeing here, but no, I think, oh, no, but this is good.

29:35
Sarah Stone
Let's disagree.

29:36
Alastair Clay
My mantra for social values always, as I've said repeatedly, obviously is less, is more. And I think, you know, taking into consideration the opportunity to try and limit waffle occasionally. And we as a framework provider often have up to nearly 100 suppliers bidding for our frameworks. So if we then ask multiple questions, which we are likely to, because it's important to think about, you know, what opportunities have I got to seek social value? And, you know, sometimes it might be one question that we ask as a contract authority, sometimes it might be two. You know, when it starts creeping to three or four, I start to be questioning why because it's obviously creating more work and you're less likely to contract manage it. But.

30:11
Alastair Clay
But for us, we've got to put a limit on the number of words that we ask because of the workload it creates. For me, there's only a set period of time in which I get to evaluate as part of the rest of my day job. So I think if were to encourage anything more than, let's say, 500 words, it would be, I mean, I've evaluated up to two and a half thousand from supplies before, and that's obviously a really good size for suppliers to put a really quality answer on. But we've got to be mindful of the workload it creates. Also the contract management it creates as well.

30:40
Alastair Clay
Afterwards, I've got an eye on making sure that we've got the right level of commitments that then encourages the users that call off our frameworks, the best chance for them to contract manage it as well. But, you know, I'll say, I take your feedback on board about, you know, your desire for more words. And this is why we talk about social value collectively, don't we? Because it's a journey that we go on. And maybe that's a question that I could ask my suppliers on the next webinar that I do. What is their ideal word count? Maybe do a poll to give them the best opportunity, because I want to continuously learn as a social value manager. And maybe, you know, we've not been asking enough words. Yeah.

31:12
Alastair Clay
So 500 often what we focus on, but that is primarily due to the workload it creates in evaluating in the time.

31:19
Sarah Stone
I can totally understand that. I think one of my favourite things to do is I like to add up the words on the question and, you know, if the question is five or 600 words and you're only given 500 words for the answer. So if the question is a short question and it's tell us this, you can do it, but it's. When it's, you know, give us this and this, and you just can't physically do that.

31:38
Alastair Clay
Yeah, it's a really good point to make. When NHS England released their social value guidance in April 2022, they encouraged, through the guidance, contracts and authorities in NHS to seek healthcare related social value. So obviously that is a bit of a slight deviation away from the social value model, but it often encourages. And where I take understanding from it and where we enact it in NAACPC is it encourages us be focused in our question. So we tend to ask more specific questions than you would see in the social value model.

32:08
Sarah Stone
I was actually going to ask you about that as well. Just specific healthcare outcomes that you, if there are any, that you would like to see, things like your priorities.

32:17
Alastair Clay
Well, I think in the NHS, the first priority anyone should be considering when they're writing a tender is obviously fighting climate change. That's got to be a must. But you've got to ask it in a way that's relevant, proportionate, measurable and additional. You got to make sure that you're asking if it's simply not relevant to ask a question on fighting climate change. Don't stress on trying to create one. But I think that would be the first theme I would always look at, and will always look at, is fighting climate change and the outcomes. That's why I'd encourage any supplier to think about, okay, if I'm delivering some works, goods or services, where is my impact on the environment? Because you can almost think about as an organisation, what commitments can I make as part of this?

32:52
Alastair Clay
You can be proactively thinking about your social value now and your submissions now to build up a bank of solutions that you've got to submit that you can do, rather than waiting to the tender excise to then think about, they've asked me this now, what can I do? Because the suppliers are obviously the gatekeepers of their goods, works and services, because that's their whole existence. So a good place to start would be that. And then in terms of other healthcare priorities, it's obviously hard to say because we're a specific contracting authority that tenders frameworks on behalf of users across the whole country, and every organization's going to have their own priorities. But that's a good thing about social value, when you're writing your own questions, is by sticking closer to what your priorities are as an organisation, do you understand your health inequalities locally?

33:31
Alastair Clay
Do you understand where you can influence the wider terms of health as an organisation, do you have a social value strategy that you can publish publicly or part of the green plans that every NHS organisation does? To really then start to create relevant questions to you as an organisation is a really good point. So, obviously, I'd encourage any organisation or any supplier to really think about what they can do and what their specific priorities are, because that really enables social value to be done as a more strategic activity.

33:58
Sarah Stone
I'm so glad.

33:59
Alastair Clay
Just being tokenistic, I'm so glad you.

34:02
Sarah Stone
Said that, because that's exactly what suppliers will say, well, how are we supposed to do this if everyone's going to do it differently? And I always say the whole point about social value is it's a differentiator. It's a mechanism that allows the public sector to choose who it wants to buy its goods and services from, and it wants to choose it from companies that operate in a way that's aligned with, you know, the public sector's values. So you just think about, you think about how you deliver your products and services and the impact you can have, and then when you get asked the question, you will find nine times out of ten, you can answer it, right? Because it's about you and how you're going to love your product services. And that one time you can't answer it.

34:36
Sarah Stone
That's when you go back with a question and you say, look this, because often the question's not relevant or proportionate or, you know, there's something wrong with the question, or you just have to deal with that one time you get asked something out the box, but most of the time, if you focus on you and what you're doing, that's the best way you can prepare.

34:51
Alastair Clay
Definitely. I would agree with that. Definitely. It's such a unique opportunity, social value, and it's something that everyone should be passionate about in an organisation, be it if they're creating the questions, if they're managing the contract or if they're influencing the strategy, you know, it's something that has to be seen as a collective mission. That's what I've got to say. No one listening to this podcast can see me clenching my fist here, but it's got to be a mission that we all seek to enact and deliver.

35:14
Sarah Stone
So, yeah, well, I think we are hugely on the same page on that and I'm very grateful to have met you. So thank you very much for your time, it's been brilliant.

35:21
Alastair Clay
My absolute pleasure. Thank you for having. Having me.

35:23
Sarah Stone
No, it's fantastic. I can't wait to put the episode out and for people to listen. So we'll put notes below to the things we talked about and where can people. Have you got a website? Where can people, if they want to find out more about the organisation, if.

35:34
Alastair Clay
Anyone wanted to come and have a look at our organisation, what we're about, it would be www dot NoECPC dot NHS dot UK. So that's got a load of information about who we are. You can see a black and white picture of me. If you were that way inclined, and in terms of our framework offering and our events more importantly as well, we talked about as well. So I'd encourage anyone to come have a look and see who we are. And you might, as a supplier, if you're listening and weren't aware of us, you might want to offer for our frameworks or bid for our frameworks in the future. That'd be great. We'd love to have your bids or we might be able to interact and collaborate somewhere in the future.

36:08
Alastair Clay
Obviously, for anyone listening to this, if they want to get in touch with me as well, that'd be great, because as fellow social value professionals, we like chewing the fat, don't we?

36:15
Sarah Stone
On social yeah, we do. We do. Anyway, thank you very much.

36:19
Alastair Clay
Thank you so much.

36:22
Sarah Stone
Thank you so much for joining me, Alastair and for giving us your time and sharing your knowledge. I hope everybody listening found it as useful as I did. I'm Sarah Stone and you've been listening to these insider tips on our monthly podcast. Let's talk social value. A new episode drops every month at the end of the month. Samtala is a social value creation agency. We've been described by our clients is their social value secret weapon. We work with suppliers to strengthen and improve the way public services are delivered by developing and delivering innovative, impactful social value activities which create real benefits for both businesses and stakeholders alike. For more insights and tips to help you deliver good social value, why not sign up to our monthly newsletter, the social value files. You can subscribe for free at Samtala Dot co dot Uk dot.

37:07
Sarah Stone
Thanks for listening.