00:12
Sarah Stone
Hello and welcome to let's Talk Social Value, the podcast where we get to pick the brains of amazing experts and professionals working in the field of social value. I'm Sarah Stone, your host, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Isabel Parasram, who is Chief Executive of the Institute for Social Value, formerly known as Social Value uk. Isabel, thank you so much for joining us. I'm thrilled and really honored that you've agreed to come on the show.

00:36
Isabelle Parasram
It's lovely to be here and hello to all of your listeners.

00:39
Sarah Stone
If I can just sort of start, obviously, I introduced you as the Chief Executive, the Institute for Social Value, formerly known as Social Value uk. Is that the right way around? Have you quite changed your name yet? Where are you at with all of that?

00:49
Isabelle Parasram
So it's been a whirlwind of activity, I have to say. We changed our name just a couple of months ago and we are in the process of rebranding. And because this was a somewhat unexpected journey, we hadn't had a position in place where were going to project, plan exactly what were going to do, because weren't entirely sure that we would even become an institute. So I can share a bit more about that journey, if you would like me to.

01:15
Sarah Stone
No, I'd love you to, actually. So I've got loads. I mean, I know you and I have talked a bit about it, but I've still got lots of questions, like, you know, what is an institute? You know, you said you weren't quite sure you were going to do it. What prompted that change? How did it come about? And also, you know, what does it mean, really?

01:30
Isabelle Parasram
Yes. So going back to what you originally asked me, in terms of who we are and who we're becoming, we are in the process of rebranding and we want to do it as a real consultation exercise, engaging with all sorts of people, members, other stakeholders, but members of the community. And so we decided, rather than rushing into rebranding and relaunching ourselves, we would do this as a real community effort. Hence, it's going to take a bit longer, but we want to do it in this way because we want everybody to own the Institute for Social Value. And what prompted it? It was something that we had floated some time ago. So, for those of you who don't know, I became the sole CEO of what was Social Value UK in autumn of 2023.

02:13
Isabelle Parasram
And at that time we had also a new board, so completely new set of leadership, including a new SLT as well. And from November to roughly the Spring, were engaging in consultation with lots of different people, members as well as other types of stakeholder. But really importantly, were listening to those people individuals organizations that were not a part of the SVUK community as it was then, and were really curious as to why was this happening? And in those discussions we actually found out a lot of information about what people were wanting to see within the sector and how they perceived social value and impact measurement. And as a result, we decided that we wanted to take this step. We, as I say, consulted with lots of different sorts of people and stakeholders and then embarked on this journey.

03:12
Isabelle Parasram
And when I say it was unexpected in the sense that we hadn't entirely planned that this would happen quite now, but we really noticed this trend in the market of people saying, actually we need to get together, we need to build a community, we need to, rather than compete, try to grow this sector and also to professionalize it and have entirely regulation, but some sort of coming together and agreeing standards of behavior and codes of conduct and et cetera, guidance and, yeah, were meant to fit into that slot, really. So that's how it happened.

03:47
Sarah Stone
Yeah, no, it's fascinating and you're right, there's a massive need for it. I'd like to spend time, come on to what you're going to do, but just to kind of go back to the past a bit. So, Social Value uk, are you still a charity or is it like you're almost like a new organization? Because I obviously been a member of Social Value UK for a number of years and I'm a huge fan. But Social UK always did used to focus, you know, on that accounting for Value Peace. That's its roots, wasn't it? And that's where it kind of grew from. And am I right in thinking the Institute is going to kind of have a bit more of a broader. I don't know if remit is quite the right word. Perhaps you can help me out here.

04:21
Isabelle Parasram
Yeah, that's right. So Social Value K originally was set up 2007. We were and still are the professional membership body for anyone interested in Social value and impact management. And we are a learned society officially and we are an organization that brings people together and we have a lot of services that we offer to our members, but essentially we've always been a membership organization. But I do acknowledge that there was some confusion in terms of what were actually existing for. And so you've talked about measurement and there has always been a very heavy focus on measurement historically for us, whereas what we're trying to achieve with the Institute is to be much more community based. So we're wanting to bring, you know, people often describe the social value sector as the wild west of social value.

05:14
Isabelle Parasram
We want to bring organizations and individuals together and to be able to offer that independence, which we should be doing, and to say, actually, you know, there is so much more to social value, which is something I'm sure we'll come on to later. More than measurement, it's hugely important, but there is a lot surrounding that. And so the Institute is essentially going to be the professional body that is independent, that is open for all and more inclusive than perhaps we've been perceived in the past.

05:44
Sarah Stone
That's fantastic. And what sorts of things do you have planned for the future? Obviously, there's the rebranding and the name change. For example, when you talk about consulting around the branding and the rebranding, what sorts of things do you want people to tell you? Is it what you should be called or what it might look like, or what kind of things do you want to hear from people about?

06:03
Isabelle Parasram
Well, it's actually going much deeper than that. So we've begun the rebranding process by having a workshop session with our team at Nuede, and that will be rolled out to our board and then members, etc. But we're really looking at what do we exist for, what works for our members, what would people want if they wanted to sign up to become a member. But also, what is our vision, what is our mission, what are our values? And we're essentially, you know, reconstructing ourselves from the bottom up. And it's such an exciting process. So in terms of what people can really feed back to us, it's answers to all of those questions. I am very interested in hearing people's honest feedback. That's the kind of person, that's the kind of leader that I am. I just want to have it told to me straight.

06:50
Isabelle Parasram
I don't want people to be polite or feel that they've got to go around. And that's why I've really valued those honest conversations where people have said, look, Isabelle, this what's not working, this needs to be fixed. And that has been directed at the sector, but also at us. And I'm willing to take on that challenge. So that's where it's very exciting.

07:08
Sarah Stone
It's more than just a branding process. I don't know what the right word for it is. Maybe somebody who's listening can come up with one. How can people get involved in it?

07:17
Isabelle Parasram
So we have a design agency that is working with us called Me and you. And once they have met with our board, they will then also be rolling out an invitation to people to get involved. They might be one to one interviews, they might be group discussions, that kind of thing. So we will be posting on our social media sites. So if you take a look at LinkedIn for loss on LinkedIn, we're also on Twitter, but you can sign up to our newsletter as well. So there are lots of ways to stay in touch with what we're doing. And at some point, maybe in this podcast I'll talk about our conference that's coming up, but through that as well, there will be a rollout of people being able to sign up help.

07:57
Isabelle Parasram
So it's not just with the rebranding, there's lots more going on that people can get involved in. But I'll mention a bit of that later, perhaps do it now.

08:04
Sarah Stone
So the conference. I'm coming, it's very exciting. I'm coming. Lots of people I know are going. It's in Birmingham. What day is it? Remind everybody.

08:11
Isabelle Parasram
Tuesday the 26th of November. And that will be in Birmingham, kindly sponsored by BT. Then the next day it will be online. We do anticipate a lot of people wanting to book because when we issued expressions of interest, there were lots of people then. So get your tickets quickly. And then at the conference itself, we will be launching the Institute for Social Value, with all of our branding, hopefully. And through that, yeah, it's so exciting. We want to set up working groups or the equivalent, because as I said, we want the Institute to be built by the people. And so from that point of view, we're setting up working groups or, you know, I'm sure we'll come up with another type of name, but we want to cover things like the all important measurement.

08:55
Isabelle Parasram
But also how do we as an institute, avoid social value washing, which is so important. Everything we're doing, we want to create a community that is open to everybody. And wherever you are on your social value journey, we want you to find a home with us. But we're also very aware that reputation is important and ensuring that there is integrity to what we're doing. So we'll be looking at exciting things potentially, like the reform of the social value model. I know that there's a great deal of interest in that and then finally, just for the sake of time, talking about advocacy, so there is a real appetite for, particularly given my background in politics, for organizations and individuals to get involved in shaping the sector and shaping where we stand politically. So we are non partisan, we don't get involved in party politics.

09:45
Isabelle Parasram
And that was always my way as far as was possible when I was involved in politics. I think a lot more is achieved when you work collaboratively cross party. But we do have lots to say in terms of how to see government act. And so I'm setting up some sort of advocacy group, not entirely sure what the shape of it will be. And the reason I'm not sure is because I don't want to be the one making all of the decisions. I'm listening, I want to hear feedback. And so I'm open to the way in which we do this. But essentially we want to create a group that will work on advocacy that really reflects what our members are wanting to say and what they want the government and other elected politicians to be.

10:25
Sarah Stone
Hearing, which is really exciting because there really isn't any real mechanism at the moment that allows professionals and practitioners in the sector to feed back to government and policymakers, in my opinion. So that's really exciting. So come to the conference is basically the bottom line. Sign up and get involved. I'll put a link in the show notes as well to the conference tickets so people can have a look. But just talking about the government, because obviously I know you've got a very strong background in politics and I know that you do quite a lot of chatting to people and talking to people in government. One of the things that people ask me and I have to kind of say, well, I'm not sure is, you know, what are the new government's plans for social value?

11:05
Sarah Stone
So I'm really interested in asking, what do you think politicians and policymakers have got on their radar and what kind of changes might we expect to see over the next few months?

11:14
Isabelle Parasram
Well, talking quite specifically about our sector, people will know that the Procurement act received royal assent in October 2023 and it was due to come into effect fairly shortly. However, what has been announced is that it will now commence on the 24th of February 2025. And so that will be a delay of roughly four months from the original go live date. And that's a really interesting development for me. The Government will be looking again at the National Procurement Policy Statement, otherwise known as the NPPs. And that's very exciting because it means that from my point of view, I think that there will be much more integration of social value and what is equally described as public benefit in some documents. But I think that there will be much more emphasis placed on social value by this new government.

12:06
Isabelle Parasram
And we are seeing much more of this, you and I, certainly, and others around us in our community. We're seeing what I would call shoots of development. So we knew when Labour was in opposition that this was a real passion and something that was so key and very important. And I'm certainly seeing things behind the scenes now. Even if I were told insider information, I certainly couldn't announce it on a podcast. But you and I both know that the way that the government works is it will want to get things foundationally correct before anything is announced, and when it is announced, it will be to everybody at the same time, hopefully.

12:44
Isabelle Parasram
And so, rather than necessarily speculating on what's going to happen, I think the way that I'm approaching things is being a part of those conversations, being available, making it clear that we want to be a part of anything that is being developed. And hence the increased focus on advocacy through the Institute is something that we want to be achieving and representing our members with that and in part with the social value model, you know, there's a lot of debate over is it going to be reformed? Should we just accept it as it is? And I began chairing a working group, looking at that through the National Social Value Task Force.

13:24
Isabelle Parasram
And, you know, our first meeting, we had a bit of a debate over whether we ought to be looking at the social value model being reformed or whether we ought to be saying, okay, this is it, how do we work well with it? And so it's really interesting that there is even debate at that level.

13:38
Sarah Stone
Yeah.

13:39
Isabelle Parasram
Personally, I do think it's ripe for reform, and it's something we want to have a position on, certainly. So that's where we're headed with that.

13:46
Sarah Stone
And that working group, you said it was part of the National Social Value Task Force. Is that the LGA's National Social Value Task Force, or is that another one, a government one?

13:55
Isabelle Parasram
Yes. So you had a podcast interview recently with the chair of the nsbt.

14:00
Sarah Stone
Yes, Lorraine.

14:01
Isabelle Parasram
I certainly love working with Lorraine. She's a real woman of integrity, rolls her sleeves up and wants to get on with things. So that's what I'm talking about.

14:11
Sarah Stone
One of my issues, if you like, or one of the reasons I think there are sometimes issues with social value, is because so much of the kind of framework that sits around it, things like the task force, which are really influential bodies with really knowledgeable, experienced people on them, people like Lorraine and you and lots of other colleagues that, you know, but they don't have any kind of formal status, is the Wrong word. But they don't have any kind of formal position, if you like.

14:41
Sarah Stone
So say, for example, if the National Social Value Task Force, which sits within in the Local Government association and the local government is a membership body set up by local government, if the National Social Value Task Force was to come up with suggestions for updating the social value model, which I think would be wonderful, and I think if the people within that organization were to do that, it would be immensely valuable because they're all hugely experienced and would say wonderfully, you know, useful things. The challenge is, what's the mechanism for the Cabinet Office to adopt that? You know, it's not come from the Cabinet Office, it's not a Cabinet Office led. Which is why I think the advocacy piece that you're talking about the Institute doing is so valuable.

15:23
Sarah Stone
Because if you look at something like the toms, for example, they were created by the National Social Value Task Force by a group of private, public and third sector volunteers who came together, volunteered their time because there was no guidance being issued by government and you had local authorities that wanted to take advantage of the Social Value act and there were all these questions. So professionals came together, volunteered their time in 20, 16, 15, 16, 17, and created the National Toms. And now those National Toms are owned by a private sector firm. And so, you know, there's this gray space where you often have people who say to me, oh no, the national toms are the only official framework and way of doing social value. And I'm like, no, that's not true. The only official way is the social value model.

16:13
Sarah Stone
Because that's the only thing that the government has put out. For me, this kind of goes to the heart of the problem that if you have lots of individuals, no matter how well meaning, putting out guidance, unless you know, it's got some kind official weight to it.

16:25
Isabelle Parasram
I think this is a wider philosophical debate, actually, Sarah, that I would love to have with you, but probably in another context. So I think that there is an issue with being able to feed into policy making within government.

16:40
Sarah Stone
Oh, yes. Oh, we need to have that conversation in another context with a glass of wine.

16:48
Isabelle Parasram
The issue about who are the decision makers and how are decisions made, that goes to the heart of everything that we do. Social value and impact management. And it's all about hearing those voices that are never heard and amplifying those voices that heard very quietly. And so I think there is a much wider issue about how voices can be heard within Parliament and it isn't so simple. So people will Say, and I've been on the inside just like you have. People will say, write to your mp, write to your local councillor. We all know that the response through that will be very patchy, that some things will be ignored. We're seeing the headlines of all sorts of scandals that are happening now that were flagged and warned to government ministers.

17:32
Isabelle Parasram
And, you know, to be fair to them, they get a lot of calls to action and, you know, a lot of groups lobbying them and they have to make decisions at that point in time as to who they're going to listen to. But aside from all of that, there's so much that I could say. But could an ordinary person within the social value sector say, I would like to make a suggestion about how the social value model ought to be reformed and can they ensure that their voice is heard in one way or another? And there is no mechanism, there's no formal way, it's not simple and easy to access, and you have to hope that somebody asks you.

18:07
Isabelle Parasram
And often that will happen around election time, you know, when somebody knocks on your door and they're lobbying for votes and you get to say, what are your most important issues? And it goes onto a clipboard. And, yes, so I can understand the disillusionment sometimes with politicians, but as I say, I can see a pathway. I know that there are a lot of committed people within the sector, including yourself, and I do believe that we together can find a way to make our voices heard collectively.

18:34
Sarah Stone
And how exciting will that be? Because it'll just be brilliant. And, yeah, anything. You need help to do that, I'm sure. Well, I definitely will be there, but lots of people listening as well will want to help you with that. And that kind of takes us a little bit to the kind of. You had a great name for it, Social Value Washing that, you know, you talked about earlier. Yeah. I mean, is that something that you see the Institute having a role in addressing? And what. What do you think the issues are with Social Value Washing at the moment? And what might we be able to do about it?

19:05
Isabelle Parasram
Yeah, absolutely. So sometimes organizations will come to us seeking membership. I didn't tell everybody what membership actually involves, so.

19:13
Sarah Stone
I know, and you should do that as well, because I've been a member for years and it's brilliant.

19:17
Isabelle Parasram
Oh, thank you. Well, when people join us, they're wanting to join a community, some of the things that we offer are assurance and accreditation. We offer events like lunch and learn sessions. We've got our conference. People can attend training at subsidized Rates, we have thought leadership groups. So people are really interested in that, actually. One covering procurement, education, built environment, and another on the environment. And then there are all sorts of things that we're offering. Promotion of things that you're doing. Resource library, a consultant, directory, newsletter, working together on projects. That's one of the latest things that we're doing. There's lots that you can discover if you click the link that's probably associated with this podcast.

20:00
Isabelle Parasram
But in terms of the question that you asked me in terms of social value washing, I started by saying that sometimes organizations come to us because they want to win a contract. So they know they've got a number, a certain percentage that they've got to achieve, and they want to know how do we tick whatever boxes are required so that we can win this bid. And when they come to us, they can sometimes be a bit surprised that we invite them to go on a journey of development. And through that, they can then learn more about the tools that are on the market, etc. But also how they can genuinely create impact.

20:35
Isabelle Parasram
And I've listened to a couple of your podcasts and I know you're a real fan and you can see the move towards not just measurement of social value, but looking at what we do with that data that is so important. And social value washing, although we want to be a community that invites everybody in, we do want every single organization to be on a journey of development within their social value portfolio, etc. So we're wanting to see that movement rather than coming in order to achieve a certain goal and then leave. So that's really what we're trying to achieve.

21:10
Isabelle Parasram
But also there's the other piece of it, which is that we don't want to endorse any product, any service, any organization, if they're engaged in practices that undermine what they're saying in terms of being able to accord with the eight principles of social value. So that is why I do feel that we need some heads together to be able to figure out how can we be both inclusive, but also have some boundaries and protect the reputations of everybody within our community.

21:37
Sarah Stone
Yeah. And I think there's a lot of people that will be listening to that going, yes, that's just what we need. Because especially as you watch social value evolve. And it's worth just reminding everybody that, you know, you said you were set up in 2007, you predated the Social Value act by five years, you know, social value, you know, it's that question, what is social value? And practitioners, we hate that question because it's kind of like, how long have you got? But a lot of people, when they talk about social value, they just talk about it as a mechanism that exists in public sector procurement. And it, that's 10% of a contract. And actually there it's not, it's a concept, it's an intangible thing. You know, it's about the benefit and the change that you can make to people and their well being.

22:19
Sarah Stone
And that's the bit that a lot of people, I think that sort of see it as quite transactional because they're just looking at it through the lens of procurement. Don't necessarily get.

22:28
Isabelle Parasram
Yeah, absolutely. When people ask me what social value is, I say it's simply impact on people. And people are quite disappointed with that very short answer. But you know, I'm also in the business of wanting to keep things simple and to make sure that we are accessible. So I don't want social value. I even hesitate to say social value as a sector because I don't think social value should be a sector or impact management is a sector. And sometimes in my writing you'll see me have to say that in order to get a message across. But actually this is something that everybody should be involved in, everybody is involved in one way or another. It's kind of like politics. People will often say to me, oh, I'm not political, I don't read the newspapers, I'm not interested. But politics is involved.

23:18
Isabelle Parasram
Every time you walk down the street and you notice a pothole and you want to get that changed, or the lollipop person who's helping your child across the road has had their contract ended because the local authority can't afford it. So we are all interested in politics and we are all engaged in the creation or destruction of social value. And so it's something we all ought to be educated on and be really passionate about and it benefits society across so many levels and something that I really want to get to a place where we make this so simple that the average 14 year old teenager in a school can understand what it is, be engaged in it and potentially even be learning about it.

24:00
Sarah Stone
So yeah, I think the average 14 year old teenager in school would probably get it. To be honest with you, I think they would get it more than a lot of people. Because you're right, it is about people. And we've prioritized economic value over social value for so long that we almost, we do it without thinking about it, don't we? Especially In a business context it's always about profit, isn't it? And it's very easy for people within businesses to make decisions that they perhaps wouldn't do things or say things or behave in a way that they perhaps wouldn't do outside of a business context or a work context. And they justify it by saying, well, we've got to make profit, we've got to make money. They do things that actually are not okay, but you can hide behind it.

24:43
Sarah Stone
And that for me is a big part of why I'm really passionate about social value. Because I also think that if you get social value right, you can make really profitable, sustainable, healthy businesses. It's about values and morals, isn't it? And all that old fashioned stuff that you. My dad used to teach me about. But anyway, I'll get emotional, I talk about my dad.

25:01
Isabelle Parasram
So I just wanted to comment on what you said about profit. And I often hear people talk about profit and finances as if they are opposing to social value. So one or the other. And what I really want to make clear and get across is this, organizations have got to make a profit, they've got to be able to trade, they've got to have finances at the center because you know, if we want to create an impact, it's got to be funded by money. So it's not a dirty word to say that you are a practitioner, you charge a certain amount, you want to have an income. And I do find that there are some sectors of our sector that will almost feel ashamed about the money side of things.

25:44
Isabelle Parasram
But it is important and I don't want that to be excluded from discussions about social value and sustainability, etc. But on the other hand, I agree that the whole concept of social value, it's not matured, it's not been something that has been emphasized. And so in many ways we need to make it equitable when it comes to social value versus other types of ways of accounting for value. And so both can coexist, both have to exist and they are dependent on each other. We have missed the trick when we focus only on finances because as I said, it's like politics. Whatever you might think, social value is either being created or destroyed.

26:26
Isabelle Parasram
And at the end of the day, I think one of the things that were going to talk about at one point is how to convey to businesses that social value is something to be aware of. And this is one of the means of conveying this, that actually it's economically good sense to focus on how to.

26:43
Sarah Stone
Optimize and that segues really neatly into my last question, actually. And actually it came from LinkedIn. So went out on LinkedIn, didn't we? And we said to people, right, we're talking to each other. What should I ask Isabel? And one of the questions that we got back was what your perspective was on how they're a social value practitioner within a large corporation, how they can shift the perception of social value within businesses themselves. And this is something I hear a lot from people. I hear it from a lot of people who are disillusioned, actually.

27:11
Sarah Stone
A lot of social value practitioners who are working within companies and they're really disheartened because they just feel like they're getting nowhere or they get somewhere and then somebody further up the chain, you know, I hate the word C suite, but it's normally the C suite inverted commerce who doesn't get social value and who just, you know, shuts down whatever they're trying to do or blocks it. And this, I think is a really big challenge. And it's one of the reasons is why often, Zamtana, we work mainly with large organizations because I find that smaller organizations are more connected with people.

27:43
Sarah Stone
So, you know, that whole they just tend to be closer to their stakeholders and doesn't mean that they always act in a way that creates benefits for all their stakeholders, but they just a bit closer to them, whereas large organizations, it's much more tricky. So what would your thoughts on that be? And just go back to that kind of how do we make that commercial argument stronger for social value? And what kinds of other data sets we can point out that you've read or have you got any tips or advice for somebody who is in that position where they're feeling that bit disheartened, they're not getting where they need to get, or they can see their company doing something that's going to be really disastrous and they can't seem to get anyone to listen.

28:21
Isabelle Parasram
Good question. And something that I'm asked a lot as well. So there are times, lots of times when we're approached by practitioners or social value experts within large industry or large company. And what's happened is the company has decided that social value is a good thing, It's a good thing, but they don't know what it's about. They don't have a lot of resource to put to it, but it's something that's got to be done. Kind of like, you know, a lot of initiatives that are in the newspapers or cultural things that are happening. So we've got to get something done. So we're going to hire somebody who understands social value. So put out an advert, recruit somebody, and then that poor person is the one person in the organization that has to convert brain and help everybody understand.

29:05
Isabelle Parasram
And you know, as a politician, for me to get a message across and to persuade people and take them on a journey, I had a machine, largely volunteers, but I had a machine that was able to support me do that. Imagine one person trying to change a culture. All I hear are people saying, we're so lonely, you know, we'd love to expand our team by one person. And hence the need for this networking and the support that we as an institute offer and want to increasingly offer. We're in fact setting up regional networks. That's one of the things that we want. Lots of help needed for that. We'd love to have volunteers and ideas for where we can do that. So we need to set up that kind of support.

29:46
Isabelle Parasram
But in terms of that person who is the sole one in the organization, people do come to us and they say how can we handle this? And, and what we do and many of our members will do is go into those organizations and have those discussions. Because sometimes it's actually quite hard. You almost need an advocate to be able to persuade that senior person or the decision maker that this is a good thing. There needs to be a little bit of translation, but also that external eye, I suppose, is how I would describe it. So that's something that we do, our members do as well. And being able to get a champion who is in a decision making position within the organization to take it on board that this is something that's important and from that flows so much more.

30:30
Isabelle Parasram
Because I've seen organizations where you've got somebody who's sold on it, who is in a decision making capacity and it's totally transformed the way that organization works. So essentially my message is even though you feel alone, reach out because you're part of a much broader community that is experiencing exactly the same thing. You can experience transformation when you band together with others and seek help. So contact us, contact some of our members and you will be able to get words, to be able to communicate and understand. And also some of that evidence that you were talking about, Sarah, of essentially what does it benefit an organization to engage with this? And that's going to be some of what we will be discussing in the conference that's coming up. It'll be fantastic.

31:18
Sarah Stone
Thank you so much. It's been absolutely brilliant to have you on. I will put Some links in the notes below. So the things that we've talked about, where can people find you if they want to reach out to you or your team?

31:28
Isabelle Parasram
A good place would be LinkedIn. And I only say that because a lot of people nowadays, that's how they communicate. But we're also available on our website, by which you will post a link, I think attached to. But I am open and accessible, so people can contact me easily via social media. And our team, we're also out and about, so we go and meet our members. So if you want to meet with us, please let us know. We're always open to that. So we're just really keen to engage. You'll always see at the end of my videos, get in touch, contact me, etc. So sign up for the newsletter, check us out on our website, come to our conference, message us on social media. We're always open for chat.

32:05
Sarah Stone
Perfect. Thank you. And if anyone reaches out to me, I will pass the details on to you. Because when you were talking, I do a lot of connecting heads of social value, as long as they're in different sectors and not competitors, you know, because you're right, it's so lonely. But if you find another one who's in the same boat as you, it's great. So anyone that would reach out to me, I can put them in touch with you as well and your amazing team.

32:25
Isabelle Parasram
There is one other question, though.

32:27
Sarah Stone
Oh, go.

32:28
Isabelle Parasram
We talked about the question that we're not going to ask.

32:31
Sarah Stone
Oh, yeah. What was the question we decided to leave out and why?

32:35
Isabelle Parasram
So you and I are always asked.

32:38
Sarah Stone
Yeah, go on.

32:40
Isabelle Parasram
Best tool for measuring social value. We're asked this.

32:43
Sarah Stone
We ask that all the time.

32:45
Isabelle Parasram
And when were chatting. Oh, should we include this question or not? We decided, even though it's so important, we decided we would not answer this question. We did decide that. Do you remember?

32:57
Sarah Stone
I do remember that. There's like. You tell everybody why we decided.

33:00
Isabelle Parasram
I'll tell them.

33:01
Sarah Stone
You tell them. Go.

33:03
Isabelle Parasram
So the way that we see things is measuring social value is hugely important. And historically, it's been the thing that everybody focuses on. And as I mentioned, when people come to join us, it's the number one question that we're asked. But we wanted in this podcast to be able to show that social value is about so much more than simply numbers, tick, boxing. And I know measurement doesn't always have to involve that, it does involve interpretation of the data, but we really wanted to say social value is about so much more than you see in the headlines and on Google and we invite you to come on that journey with us to find out exactly what that is.

33:39
Sarah Stone
Yeah. So it's not quite that we don't think it should be measured, because we do, but it's about the. What are you doing before you try and measure it? Yes, it's the what first.

33:48
Isabelle Parasram
Yes.

33:49
Sarah Stone
Amazing. Thank you so much as well. It's absolutely brilliant. I can't wait to get this episode out.

33:53
Isabelle Parasram
I can't wait to hear it. Thanks for inviting me and looking forward to hearing from your listeners.

33:59
Sarah Stone
I'm Sarah Stone and you've been listening to let's Talk Social Value. You can find all our previous episodes on our website or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you found this useful, then please do share the episode with your networks and consider leaving us a review. I'd love to know what you think of that episode, so please reach out to me and let me know. You can find me on LinkedIn or contact me on our website, www.samtaler.co uk. See you next time.