Debbie Ryan, Group CEO, Impact Academy

Sarah Stone (00:12):

Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk Social Value podcast, where we explore what creating value for society means and the practical ways you can go about creating it. My name's Sarah, and my guests work in different areas of social value across public-private, and third sector organisations from the public sector, procurement to ESG and sustainability, social enterprise and impact measurement. I'll be asking them about their work and what they've learned, and they'll be sharing their tips and experience to help us all make our organisations better.

Sarah Stone (00:42):

Today, we are talking about apprenticeships and how they work because they are something that I get asked about a lot. They're a key priority for the public sector, but they're also something that lots of people get confused about, and companies do struggle to deliver. My guest is Debbie Ryan, CEO of the Impact Academy. One of the UK's registered apprenticeship training providers. And in our chat, we talked about what an apprenticeship is and why they're important, how much they cost and how to set one up. And also how, if you're a levy payer, you can gift apprenticeships to charities and third sector providers. It was a really interesting conversation, and I certainly learned a huge amount. So I hope you will too.

Debbie Ryan (01:21):

We deliver a whole range of apprenticeships, but a lot of our apprenticeships have a focus on sustainability as well. We also offer companies a deep dive under the covers, so we can look at their sustainability credentials and give them the appropriate accreditation if required. The apprenticeships are the bulk of what we do. Yes, but we are there to support businesses in other ways. But for all our apprenticeships, we're passionate about the impact agenda. So all our apprenticeships do have a glance towards sustainability as well.

Sarah Stone (01:52):

Which is really exciting from my perspective. One of the reasons that I'm really excited to have you on the podcast and to talk to you about apprenticeships is that a lot of people don't always understand them. And I think sometimes they can be overcomplicated. So can we just start with the basics? And can I ask you what an apprenticeship is?

Debbie Ryan (02:10):

Absolutely. Do you know how often I answer this question? Probably about four or five times a day from various employers because everyone I can guarantee has an image in their head of what an apprenticeship is, and it's nothing like that anymore. Think of the apprenticeship as the wraparound training course around the individual rather than the individual themselves. And that's the best way to try and understand it. Apprentices can be of any age. The oldest apprentice at the moment is 82. So again, people think apprenticeships are just for young people coming out of school. That's not the case at all.

Sarah Stone (02:45):

A wraparound training course. That's such a great way to explain it because I think many people think of it as just being about the individual.

Debbie Ryan (02:52):

You can put an existing staff member on an apprenticeship program, and the CEO of a company can do an apprenticeship. So it is thinking of it as the upskilling of an individual. Yes, absolutely. You can recruit somebody brand new into an apprenticeship role, but it doesn't mean that the rest of your team gets neglected. They can all start an apprenticeship program as well.

Sarah Stone (03:15):

So what you're saying is they're for anyone they're not for any one specific age?

Debbie Ryan (03:21):

Anyone, any role, existing staff, new staff, there's an apprenticeship program to accommodate them. And we do, from entry-level apprenticeships all the way through to the equivalent of a master's degree. And I think in the government's eyes, it's important to think and sort of categorising the employers from a government perspective. They've split employers into two categories, a large employer. And for the purposes of apprenticeships, a large employer is someone who has an annual PAYE bill of more than £3 million, and they are classed as a levy employer. And they pay a levy tax, which I'll tell you about in a bit, but the rest of the country then is classed as non-levy or a co-investment employer. And what that means is the government will support 95% of the costs of the training and the qualification for each apprenticeship, which is absolutely fantastic.

Sarah Stone (04:17):

I was gonna ask you about that. So you're saying the government pays for them?

Debbie Ryan (04:20):

95% of them. So if you're a levy payer, you are taxed through your payroll. So the CFO in the company will know if you are a levy payer because 0.25% Tax is applied to your payroll. And that goes into your levy pot, and you either use it or lose it. If you're not a levy payer, then you probably don't know anything about apprenticeships. And in those circumstances, the government support by paying 95% of the cost. And let me put that as a sort of a real example for you, a digital marketing apprenticeship it's a level three apprenticeship equivalent to a couple of A-levels. A 12-month course, that's £11,000, but the government pay £10,450 of that. And the employer pays just £550. And not only that, they can pay that monthly. So you can get a digital marketing apprenticeship course, a 12-month course, for £46 a month. It's an affordable way to upscale your staff.

Sarah Stone (05:23):

It's really affordable. You talked earlier about the levy and how it was use it or lose it. Are there many people that are losing it because they're not using it?

Debbie Ryan (05:33):

Absolutely. You know, some people they're aware of they've got a levy pot, but it's very often finances doing one thing L&D and HR are doing another. Large employers who are underspending. Their levy can work with smaller employers to share that pot. And very often as well, if you're a levy employer and you are with a single provider, there might not be the span of apprenticeships that meet the needs of your business. You know, you can have as many training providers working with you as you want. So you get a good broad brush of different apprenticeship courses.

Sarah Stone (06:07):

So does not every apprenticeship provider do all the same courses?

Debbie Ryan (06:10):

No, because there are thousands, absolutely thousands of different apprenticeships. Each provider specialises in different areas. One of our apprenticeships is the junior energy manager, and we were the first provider to deliver that apprenticeship. And that's an 18-month course. You know, there are people who are coming to the end of that apprenticeship now for the first time. And that's a fantastic sustainability apprenticeship and really can benefit employers who are looking to make that shift to net zero or be conscious of their climate impact. It's a really good apprenticeship to have and can save the business money as well.

Sarah Stone (06:48):

I was gonna say; that I bet people are biting your arm off for those ones at the moment.

Debbie Ryan (06:51):

They are some apprenticeships that always go like hotcakes, the digital marketing, because of COVID, you can imagine during COVID businesses really had to think differently about how they were doing business. Everyone moved to online sales because nobody was going out, and we were in lockdown. So the digital marketing apprenticeship teaches your employees everything about social media, content development, your website, a little bit about coding, and video production. So all of the online sales skills that we all had to revert to during COVID are taught as part of that digital marketing apprenticeship. It's always a go-to for businesses, but the junior energy manager, again, you know, we've just had Cop 26, everyone's thinking about climate and what they can do as a business to become net zero. And then we take it to the top end of the scale; we do a net zero senior leadership program as well. Now that's our level seven apprenticeship. So think of your CEOs, your CFOs; these are the type of people that should be doing that. That's an 18-month apprenticeship, it's £14,000, but again, the government pay 95%. So you can get a master's equivalent apprenticeship for £39 a month. It's mind-blowing, really.

Sarah Stone (08:06):

And are there any barriers to entry? So do you have to have a certain level of qualification to do an apprenticeship?

Debbie Ryan (08:12):

Yeah. So all apprenticeships, there is a minimum standard of Maths and English functional skills, but we'll work with the employer, and we work with the individuals, and we do a skill scan with everyone before we put them on an apprenticeship program. A: To make sure that they are meeting the need, that they have got the required skills to be able to cope with the apprenticeship, but also so that we're not teaching them stuff that they already know because apprenticeships can be tailored. They're employer-led. So if there are bits that we need to take out, we can do because if somebody has already got the skills, we don't need to teach them to suck eggs so we can remove them from the apprenticeship. And that actually brings the cost down as well. So the maximum price you would pay can only go down from there. It never increases.

Sarah Stone (08:58):

That's amazing. And what about learning? Is that all done virtually?

Debbie Ryan (09:03):

COVID brought in a whole new style of delivery, and we moved because of lockdown to virtual delivery. We're moving slightly out of that, and we call it a blended approach. Now the main tutors will meet with their learners over Zoom now. And some people still feel comfortable with that, but we also have an online learning system where the learners can log in and do their work. It's important to remember that as an apprentice or when you're doing an apprenticeship program, it's part of the day job. We have something that's called off-the-job training. So a minimum of 20% of the learner's time is spent either learning new material with their tutor, undertaking tasks or assignments set by their tutor, and then putting it into practice in the workplace. So the days of having to do an apprenticeship on day release are gone. There is still some of that about if that's your preferred method, it can all be done online over Zoom now with your tutor as well.

Sarah Stone (10:02):

So they're integrated into the working week?

Debbie Ryan (10:04):

Absolutely. Yes, it should be done as part of the working week. Apprenticeships aren't homework. They're not something you do when you get home, and you finish your day job. It's part of the day job. Think of it this way. If you are doing a digital marketing apprenticeship and your tutor is teaching you how to make the best of your SEO or your social media or improve your employer's LinkedIn content. For example, when you are at your desk, and you are putting the skills into practice, you are doing that live for your business, for the company. So you're living and breathing what your tutor's taking you through equally. If you are an employer and you've got a particular campaign coming up, maybe it's a Christmas campaign or Easter's just around the corner, and you really want to promote your business. Then the tutor will work with you as the employer because it's a three-way relationship to make sure that that part of the apprenticeship is delivered in time for your big campaign. So your employees are up to date and equipped to deliver your marketing campaign when it's needed. But it's not just about marketing. We do everything else. You know, we do housing and property apprenticeships. We do learning mentoring, assessor, coach, customer service, business admin, etc. It's like a sweet shop. And it's just a matter of finding what flavours you like.

Sarah Stone (11:30):

It is like a proper sweet shop. I was on the Gov.UK's website, looking at their list of apprenticeships the other day. And it's like, you know when you go to the library, and you wanna read all the books at once.

Debbie Ryan (11:39):

It can be overwhelming rarely. And what I would say to employers, I always say, let's have a chat, and I'll talk them through how the apprenticeship works. And once you've got the basic understanding of how the apprenticeship works, my job then is to understand the employer's business. So what is your business? What are your goals in your business? What are you trying to achieve? I can then look back and think, okay, a couple of apprenticeships that would suit your business. Each apprenticeship, the apprenticeship standard is split into what we call knowledge skills and behaviour. And that's what's taught as part of the apprenticeship. So it's not just the knowledge and the facts. It's about how you operate within a business and how you interpret that knowledge and deliver it for the company's benefit.

Sarah Stone (12:27):

And what sort of support does an apprentice need inside a company? So what kind of mentorship and guidance need to be made available to them?

Debbie Ryan (12:34):

There are some basics. Firstly, they need a quiet place to sort of meet with their tutor. Even if it is on their laptop or on their desktop, they need a laptop or a desktop. They can't do it over the phone. You can do it on a tablet, but it's really hard to interact, and they need to be given the time and space to research, reflect, complete their reviews, and complete their assignments, but then it's always really good that their line manager is involved and that they have someone who can mentor them in the workplace. As well. As I said before, it's a three-way relationship. It's us as the training provider, the learner, and the employer; that three-way package helps the learner excel and the employer get the most out of the opportunity.

Sarah Stone (13:23):

So can you support the line manager and then say you had an apprentice who was telling you they're not getting the support? They're not giving me the time they need off. Can you speak to their line manager and get it sorted?

Debbie Ryan (13:33):

Absolutely. We do it all the time. As a minimum, we do a monthly review with the learner and the employer. So nothing should ever get to that point where the learner doesn't feel supported, but absolutely we're there to support the learner in any way we can. And if it means talking to the employer and just reminding them, bear in mind when everyone signs up to start an apprenticeship, the apprentice has an agreement, and the employer has an agreement, and we all make commitments to each other to say, this is what I'm gonna do. This is what you are gonna do. So we're all clear from the outset. And sometimes, it's just a matter of reminding and refreshing the employer that this is what we said we'd do at the very beginning. We know it gets really busy at work. We know that sometimes there are pressures. That's why that 20% off-the-job training is flexible. It doesn't all have to be done in one day a week. It could be a couple of hours here, a couple of hours there, et cetera. It may be that every now and then, you want to put a full block of a whole week's time in the diary with the learner. It's completely flexible around the needs of the employer as well.

Sarah Stone (14:39):

I didn't realise that training providers could do all that, that they offered that kind of support or that it was available.

Debbie Ryan (14:45):

Even down to recruiting the apprentice. So if you are an employer and you'd want an apprentice, we'll help you recruit, we'll make sure it's advertised on the national apprenticeship service website for you; we'll even get it onto some of our own employment websites, do some early sifting for you and then present you with the CVs. So you can do final interviews for candidates. It's all part of the package.

Sarah Stone (15:08):

Can you target hard-to-reach groups as well?

Debbie Ryan (15:10):

Absolutely. Remember, the apprentice is your employee. So your job and person specifications are for you to determine as a company. So if you are targeting a particularly vulnerable group or a particular geographic area, or if you're looking for a certain skill set or person specification, that's your choice as an employer; remember, the apprenticeship is the wraparound training around the individual. The individual is yours for the long term. They're your employee. You pay them the terms and conditions are what you set as an employer.

Sarah Stone (15:44):

We've talked quite a bit about large companies that are levy payers, but small businesses can also take on apprentices. So do you have any advice for them? Um, so for small business owners who maybe you working remotely, they're not in an office full time, how can they take on an apprentice and support one?

Debbie Ryan (16:01):

I've got apprentices, obviously, that work with me, and it was really difficult during lockdown apprentices do need support. And when we were all in lockdown and all working remotely, people who are new in their role and doing an apprenticeship need that extra support as well if they are working remotely and there isn't an opportunity to come into an office environment because we know employers now have taken different decisions about how they work. It's important that the line manager is checking in regularly with the individual, bringing them into team meetings, talking to them, kicking off the day every day, and making sure the apprentice knows what to expect and what their work is. And then also checking in at the end of the evening, you know, if you've got younger people and they're on their own, obviously we've got responsibilities onto safeguarding. We need to make sure that everyone's in a safe environment, they're looked after, and we know where they are. And that's our responsibility as a training provider, as well as the employer's responsibility as well.

Sarah Stone (17:02):

And how likely is it that an apprenticeship would lead to meaningful employment? If that's not a stupid question.

Debbie Ryan (17:09):

People think when they recruit an apprentice, it's just for the period of time of the training, you can do that, but why would you, if you've just invested 12 months and some money into training somebody up, why would you let their skills go? Think of the apprentice as an addition to your team, your new employee, and you would treat them as you would any other employee. So if they're doing fantastic, great, you keep them on. If it's not working out and they're on probation, and you need to put them on a performance improvement plan, you do that as well; treat them as a normal employee. And if you've upskilled them and they're doing fantastic, then you've got them for the foreseeable future. It's not a short-term thing. If you want to keep them there, there your resource.

Sarah Stone (17:52):

I'd like to come back, if I can, to what you can do once you've got an apprentice who's finished their training to keep and retain them. But before I do, can I just ask you one of the challenges that companies that I work with are facing is that they're being asked to create apprenticeships or to offer apprenticeships as part of their social value offer for public sector contracts or procurers. But the challenge for them is that they can't keep creating new jobs effectively. Every time they've got a new contract, and they've got a core workforce that delivers their products and services, you often have a need to recruit new people, but not all the time. And that's a real challenge for them. Is that something you've come across and have you got any advice on that?

Debbie Ryan (18:29):

We come across it all the time. And ironically, I used to work in government procurement. So I completely understand. And that's also why we do the impact accreditation because government procurement wants to see companies' impact statements and sustainability plans, but with the apprenticeship, remember it doesn't have to always be new employees. You can put your existing employees on an apprenticeship program if you are a non-levy payer. So a co-investment employer, you can have up to 10 apprentices at any one time. So think about your existing staff. You don't have to go and create new roles. Your CEO can be on an apprenticeship program. There's one of your 10. So it's looking at your existing staff and upskilling them. And the government want to see that as much as creating new vacancies, it's about upskilling your workforce, providing them with meaningful jobs with potentially long-term futures with you as well.

Sarah Stone (19:26):

Can I just ask a question about the benefits to society of apprenticeships? Then why does the state want apprenticeships created so much that they're willing to pay so much for them?

Debbie Ryan (19:36):

It's about skills gaps; every three years, the government refreshes their register of apprenticeship training providers. It's a mouthful. I know, but every three years, they do that. And what they do is they pick a full range of providers that can deliver the skills that the economy needs. Apprenticeship should be about addressing skills gaps in business and in geographical areas as well. So the economy benefits from them. The government's also supporting employers. The national minimum wage for apprentices is different. It's £4.30 an hour currently, which is very low. And we always encourage employers to pay the going or national minimum wages if they can. But the government is doing what it can to get people back into work in the workplace and to upskill them. And because apprentices can also include functional skills. So your Maths and your English as part of that, then it is making sure people are equipped with the skills for long term careers. And equally, if employers employ someone and that person has additional learning and support needs, we can put all the wraparound programs there to support them as well. My apprentices don't mind me saying one has dyslexia. The other has ADHD, and we have a whole wraparound support network so that we can assist and support them so that they can thrive in the workplace. And that's what apprenticeships are for. It's not just going into a job and doing a job; it's being able to thrive and feel confident and competent at what you do

Sarah Stone (21:14):

That support for those apprentices that you've got. Did you have to create that? Or was there already something there?

Debbie Ryan (21:20):

Well, we tailor it to the individual's needs. And when we're working with employers, if their employee has specific needs, then we'll look at what that is and what needs to be put around for that individual. There's extra support. The government will provide in terms of financial support for employers, and we can help them access that. But there are also grants that are available to adapt workplaces, to adapt computer screens, to adapt the equipment that people use on a daily basis as well, to make sure that it's accessible for everybody. There shouldn't be any barriers to employment for people when they want to start an apprenticeship training course.

Sarah Stone (21:57):

Can you tell me about some successes? Have you got any good stories of people whose lives have been changed by doing an apprenticeship? I'm sure you must have.

Debbie Ryan (22:03):

Absolutely. And they happen all the time. We've got one young man. I won't say his name. He's doing a sales exec level four program. And he is in marketing property. That's the job he's doing as an apprenticeship; he's hit 25% of his annual target in the first month of his apprenticeship just by working with the tutor and finding out how to research that market properly. And he's absolutely thrilled to bits. We've got another case where someone doing a business admin has increased their recruitment by 29% just by looking at the existing processes and putting in better processes in place. And then we've also got one great quote. Won't tell you who it's from. He's doing a business admin, and it says ''how to become an Excel nerd in a few months''. So there you go.

Sarah Stone (22:53):

I think we can all do with a bit more Excel in our life.

Debbie Ryan (22:56):

Oh, I don't know.

Sarah Stone (23:00):

I just wanna go back to something that you said about the levy. You mentioned that large firms can share it with smaller ones. Is that what we mean when we talk about gifting it?

Debbie Ryan (23:08):

To a degree? Yes. What you tend to find is large employers look to partner up with SMEs where there's a synergy between the businesses. There's no sort of general rule. What we'd say is to talk to your training provider. We know levy employers that we can partner you up with, and we can look to see how we can get that support. But don't forget, as a small organisation, if you are a non-levy organisation, the government is still going to pay 95% of the cost. If you've exhausted your ten apprenticeships, you need to talk to a levy employer, but we can facilitate that for you.

Sarah Stone (23:44):

Just explain that ten again. So you're allowed ten of your own apprentices?

Debbie Ryan (23:49):

Once you've made the decision that you want to put people on an apprenticeship training program and on an apprenticeship course, and you've identified the individuals. We work with you to set up a government. What we call a digital apprenticeship service account, a DAS account shorthand for that, it's a bit of a clunky process. As with most government websites, you have to navigate your way around it, but once that's done, you can reserve the funding. So you reserve the full cost. So the 95% that the government pays and then the 5% that you pay as an employer, and you can reserve up to 10 at any one time. So that's ten different apprenticeship courses. The cost varies between courses, but you can have ten every now and again; the government reviews that, and they'll make changes. And sometimes they extend the amount you can have, but at this moment in time, it's ten; every now and again, the government also brings new incentives out. So currently, if you took on somebody new and they started with you between the 1st of October and the end of January, if they start an apprenticeship program before the end of March, the government is also paying a cash incentive. So they must have been employed between the 1st of October and the end of January, And they must start their apprenticeship training before the end of March. And if they do, that cash grant is a minimum of £3000.

Sarah Stone (25:18):

Which is not to be sniffed at if you're a small business owner.

Debbie Ryan (25:21):

Absolutely not that the cash incentive should drive the need for taking on apprentices, but it certainly goes a long way to support the business. Whilst you are upskilling your teams.

Sarah Stone (25:32):

What if you are a really large company, you know, you employ tens of thousands of people? You're a strategic supplier to the public sector, and you're bidding for and delivering lots of public sector contracts. You are likely to be asked to commit to apprentices on a number of those. And you could very easily and very quickly reach that ten limit.

Debbie Ryan (25:50):

Absolutely. But in that scenario, you'd probably be a levy-payer. And that's the difference. So if you are a levy payer, you are paying that tax into your pot, and you can spend all of your pot. So that takes you over the 10. It takes you over the 10; some very large employers have hundreds of apprentices. The ten only applies when the government is paying the 95%. So they put a cap on it because they're paying 95%. So if you are a co-investment employer, i.e. A non-levy payer, you've got a ten cap. If you are a levy payer, fill your boots.

Sarah Stone (26:26):

That makes much more sense now. And I've heard of large companies gifting apprenticeships, I know of one company that's gifted some to the NHS, for example, but can you gift an apprenticeship to a charity or a third sector organisation? Have you seen that happen?

Debbie Ryan (26:41):

Yeah. And when we say the large levy payers, they will often find a non-levy payer organisation that has a synergy with them. We work with the NHS a lot and very large organisations as well. So generally, when employers are gifting that levy, there is a strategic synergy somewhere that fits with the company ethos of the company strategy doesn't have to be. But very often, that's what we see.

Sarah Stone (27:07):

It strikes me as a really good way to create some social value.

Debbie Ryan (27:09):

Absolutely.

Sarah Stone (27:12):

Have you got advice for somebody who's been asked to create apprenticeships and maybe two or three things they could do? Because, to somebody new to this, this is gonna seem pretty overwhelming.

Debbie Ryan (27:23):

Absolutely. Don't do it by yourself. Talk to an apprenticeship training provider. They can guide you through every step of the way, think about your business and the roles you need to fill in your business. Don't start with the apprenticeship training course. Think about your business and then find a course that best fits that role. And then think, does it need to be a new person or have you got existing people that you can upskill in your business? Because you can do both. You don't have to do one or the other. So if you're a non-levy and you think about that 10, think about the mix of existing staff and you, and don't forget to lead by example; if you are a CEO or a CFO, Chief Operating Officer lead by example and show your teams that you are prepared to commit as well as supporting them through their journey.

Sarah Stone (28:12):

That's great advice. Thank you very much for talking to us today. It's just been brilliant to chat with you. This podcast is all about learning from each other. And so, just before we finish, I like to ask my guests to tell me about a resource that they use because everybody's got some clever little tool that somebody else needs in their life. Is there anything that you use at work that you can share with us? It can be a tool or an app or a website, or just something that you find interesting and useful.

Debbie Ryan (28:38):

Yeah. So our apprentices are doing digital marketing. As I said before, in junior content production, we use little apps like Promo, where you can make 15, second, and 22nd clips for LinkedIn, Facebook, et cetera, et cetera. It's a small fee per month, but you can make them, you can make them in under a minute. It's really good. It's good, fun. And it spices things up and makes things look a little bit fresh and different.

Sarah Stone (29:02):

Oh, I've not heard of that one. I might try that one out.

Debbie Ryan (29:04):

It's great.

Sarah Stone (29:06):

I wanna make an animation about Samtaler's name because it means conversations in Danish, and you can't create social value without talking to people, but people are always asking me what it means and how you say it. Anyway. I just happened to have a meeting with somebody who was Danish and asked him to let me record him pronouncing Samtaler. You're meant to say, Samtaler, but I haven't got a Danish accent. Um, and then explaining what it means. And I've got a great little audio clip that I want to do something with, but I don't know how or what to do. So I might try and use that one.

Debbie Ryan (29:35):

Powtwn that's another one P O w T w N. They're all rarely easy to use, and it just rarely puts a different message out there.

Sarah Stone (29:42):

Brilliant, brace yourself, LinkedIn.

Debbie Ryan (29:45):

Super

Sarah Stone (29:46):

Thanks very much, Debbie. Uh, now where can people connect with you online?

Debbie Ryan (29:51):

So the easiest way to contact me is through email, and I'm happy for you to share it. It's D dot Ryan impact academy.uk, but equally you can visit our website, which is www.impactacademy.uk. There's a contact form on there. Happy to speak to anyone.

Sarah Stone (30:09):

That's brilliant. Thank you. I've learned so much today from listening to you.

Debbie Ryan (30:12):

Thanks Sarah.

Sarah Stone (30:13):

Thanks very much.

Debbie Ryan (30:15):

Cheers.

Sarah Stone (30:16):

Thanks for listening to Let'sTalk social value with me Sarah Stone. My guest today was Debbie Ryan, and the show was produced and edited by Chris Keen.